“Implicitly accusing him of being unable to understand consent” my guy that wasn’t an accusation that was video proof of her voicing her lack of consent and him just continuing anyway. You might as well say “she implicitly accused him of asking her out,” like no there’s no accusation here there’s just an acknowledgement of fact.
Thats a massive red flag too. Not understanding that shes not interested means he does not actually care about her and might actually have bad intention.
This is exactly how salespeople work too and this is why I despise them. No means no the first time but they keep pushing and bargaining.
Last time I had to deal with knock-on-the-door sales people (because you know and they know that their emails go to the bin automatically) I told them "no, thank you, we're not interested. Good bye" and then turned around and went back to my office - and they were standing there frozen in the lobby for like 10 seconds, unable to comprehend what just happened.
I had a pest control guy come to my house. I let his misogyny turn him away. I kept saying I didn’t know which pest control company I’d used but I was good and “we” aren’t interested. He then went “your husband takes care of that stuff doesn’t he.” I said “something like that”. “Is he here so I can talk to him.” I said, “no”. He walked away after that.
I have a big no soliciting sign telling sales people not to ring my bell or make it weird and they finger blast my bell, bang on the door, wake up my sleeping partner and do not give a flying fuck when I say no and tell them to leave.
I have to literally scream at them to fuck off to get them to listen to me.
The last time this happened to me I looked at the guy and went "Why the fuck would I want to go out with someone who didn't respect me? Are you stupid?" and then just walked off and kept yelling "NOPE!" every time he tried to say something until he left me alone.
Exactly this. I’m reading a fantastic book about intuition and being able to predict escalation to violence called the Gift of Fear and one of the biggest predictors of violence in a situation where a man approaches a woman is him absolutely refusing to hear her “no”.
It’s a ship-sized red flag. By stating her “no” and refusing to be talked into something, she’s exercising behaviour that could, in a worse situation with a man who genuinely, truly means her harm, legitimately save her life.
I’ve had this type of guy try the nagging persistent shoot shotting before. I said no like this lady did several times before he pushed me too far and I straight up told him his actions were exactly like the guy who raped me years ago. Dude tried to sputter that he wasn’t a rapist, how dare I compare him to a piece of shit. I was yelling by this point for him to leave me alone, that he was not listening to a woman saying no and still pushing, aligned him with a rapist in my mind. He finally left when I started calling the cops. This was at my place of business btw.
I used to work overnights at a gas station and I had one particular customer who would come in repeatedly through the night (sometimes with his child) to buy giant slushies and try to shoot his shot. I stayed as polite as I possibly could for a really long time because he was a customer and I didn't want a complaint but I finally lost it one night and told him that NO MEANS FUCKING NO and told him to GTFO (I was overtired and just wanted him to leave.)
I didn't mention it to my Manager but the customer went in during the day to complain about me swearing at him and the first thing my boss said to him was "What did you do to her? She's my best employee. You had to have done something to piss her off." The customer tried to play it off for a while like he hadn't done anything wrong. Then he finally admitted that he'd been in to ask me out a few times but that he was just trying to be nice and take me out to dinner. My boss told him that No Means No and banned him from the store.
He was definitely a good dude. It felt great having a protective manager who always took my side on those things. It's been a rare thing in my personal experience.
The customer probably thought the boss would take his side because so often that’s what happens. It’s part of the reason it is taking it so long to convey to some guys that “no means NO”. They’re not checked by guys often enough in real time nor after the fact. Your former boss is a gem.
Oh he absolutely thought my boss was going to side with him. We had a kind of Big Brother/Little Sister kind of relationship so he was really upset once the customer admitted to what had really happened. I have absolutely experienced the opposite as well though. Mainly from female bosses too, which always bothers me because when I was in management I always took care of all of my employees but especially my female employees. No one should ever be made to feel uncomfortable. Especially where they work.
Freshly out of hs at my first job I had a 40-something man refuse to take no for an answer. Started out with “let me take you out to dinner” and spiraled into “move with me back to my home country and have my babies and you’ll never have to work ever again” I eventually went to my boss and asked for help. Small town where everyone knew everyone. My boss went straight to his boss. He was told never to speak to me again or he would be fired and lose his work visa. First and last boss I ever had that genuine cared for my safety and stuck up for me.
One of my biggest rules is that I will never ask out a person while they are at work. For one you never know if they are being nice/flirty because it's their job and they want tips. Second is that they can't leave the situation. If you ask and they so no, now it's awkward and since they are at work they have to continue doing their job.
I won’t because it creates a gross conflict between the emotional labor expected of employees and an authentic answer. That’s a mean place to put anyone
I divide the world in two main groups, depending on how they face a situation. One group try to observe a situation, understand it as best as possible, fins reasons that supports one or the other option and then choose the best option based of how you understood the world. That can happens consciously or without realising.
And then we have the other group, who first decide what outcome they prefer and then they search for what version of reality can make that outcome easier, they choose the angle that supports what they want to understand. That can happens consciously or without realising.
This guy in the video did ask himself "what do I do now?" Several times, and reality didn't effected his decision, all of the times his decision was "try again, it will work this time". Was it because it was a probable thing to happen? No, it was because it was the option that he wanted, so it's the default. And if he is asked, "why did you do the best thing for yourself instead of thinking about her?" Probably his answer would be something like "no, this was the best thing for her, that's what I was trying to explain, because dating me would be so awesome that she was really missing an amazing chance". The entitlement is incredible.
And I'm a 40 yo white man with an engineering degree.
The video is amazing, great job with the explanation.
And you just know that if they were being hit on by another guy, they absolutely would bot let him finish "shooting his shot" before turning him down. And they definitely wouldn't let the gay man make a case for why they should suck the gay man's dick.
The fact the comment also noted “directly asked her” really shows his feelings on the matter. He thinks, as most men like this unfortunately do, that because he was confident and brave, she now owes it to him to say yes. That’s where this “but you didn’t even give me a chance” mentality comes from, they believe that if they muster up the courage to ask a woman out, that woman has an obligation to entertain them.
Of course confidence and straightforwardness is a good thing and men absolutely SHOULD express interest and ask women out, but they need to learn the moment a woman rejects them they need to accept that and move on. There are other women out there, continuing to argue with this one girl and trying to convince her to like you is only going to make everyone’s day worse.
Don't get me started on the "No, no thank you, I'm not single." Suddenly it's, "I was only trying to be nice. Why does every girl automatically assume a guy being nice means they're trying to get in their pants." Schtik.
There's no winning.
Either, No(period)" means maybe, I should try harder until she's a b!tch, or, "No, I'm not available" means that they are a wh*re, or a assuming b!tch.
The problem is everything he said after she said "No, thanks."
He should've said: "Ok, have a nice day" and both people would've had a perfectly neutral interaction.
honest question - aside from backing her up in the moment, what could i really do? i don't associate with anyone even remotely like this, so i'm not sure how i even could help outside of trying to intervene in the moment and otherwsie promote not being a dickhead. i'm certainly open to suggestions though. this kind of shit isn't cool at all, especially filiming it the way he did. shit is creepy as hell.
edit: i see i've been downvoted, but it really was an honest question seeking actual advice on how i can help.
Any situation like this where you see a man ignoring what a woman is saying and continuing to push, you call it out. You say “she said no, why aren’t you listening to her?” - you say “the way you’re behaving is messed up, what’s wrong with you that you don’t take no as an answer?” - you shame him for his inability to treat women with basic respect. Make it obvious that how he’s behaving is not acceptable and it’s actually kind of pathetic.
If it’s a guy you know, talk to him and explain why his actions aren’t okay. If it’s a stranger, just be very obvious about your disdain for him and his behaviour: societal shame is a useful tool in these kinds of situations, but unfortunately it only really works when men do it because the kind of guy who needs to be shamed is the same kind of guy who won’t listen to women or give their opinion and perspective any weight.
Women could literally scream their pov and that kind of man wouldn’t pay attention - as soon as another man (someone they have respect for based solely on the fact that they’re a man) calls them out? They listen. Or, they’re more likely to, anyway.
And be consistent about it. Don’t call out one incident and then let another slide for any reason. Doesn’t matter if it’s your boy being gross: call him out for being gross.
I think that other thing people need to understand is that it should be done because it's the right thing, not for gratitude. I've heard plenty of guys say (though I've never witnessed it) they they've done this and had women yell at them because they didn't need help/protection. Even if that is what happens (which I have my doubts about), her lack of gratitude wouldn't change the fact that it was the right thing to do.
Good point. I would appreciate it because I struggle with people pleasing & will sometimes allow someone to try to convince me my boundaries are wrong out of guilt.
I hope that the ladies who don't like/need back-up don't stop guys from helping those of us who might benefit from assist. I get where they are coming from bc defending your own boundaries is empowering. I, however, am still working on that, & though I might feel too disregulated by the jerk to be super gracious, I'd likely at least give you that solid appreciative nod of recognition for being decent.
It’s honestly a bigger issue than “men need to confront other men more often”. It takes considering how cultures/societies raise, condition, and empower men. Especially men of different demographics or socioeconomic status, as highlighted in the second video. There are reasons men think and navigate the world the way they do, and it is not simply, “some other man taught or allowed him too”. Oftentimes, entire communities/systems are complicit in the development of these types of men. We, men and women alike, have to work on addressing and calling out the components of our cultures, communities, and families that allow men to engage with the surrounding world with that degree of entitlement and privilege. Chances are the douche on the other side of the camera was not an incel from the depths of a basement. He likely has parents, family, a social circle, and maybe even a religious community that in various ways have taught him the privilege and entitlement he showed. Or he’s a sociopath.
Either way men collectively have been tasked by a few of the frustrated people in the chat to “do something about it”. I imagine they feel, frustrated, tired, exhausted, and even powerless. But that doesn’t make their truths less meaningful. I know it’s hard at times to bear the way some articulate or communicate their truth. Have an open mind, an open heart, continue to ask questions in good faith, and really listen to the answers. Then take that info into account as you engage with the world. I’m sorry that some people here would rather downvote you, than actually take the opportunity to help you learn something. But don’t be discouraged, keep asking questions, you’re off to a great start.
Yeah I don’t understand the right this guy thinks he has. „Hey are you interested ?“ „no“ „ok thx“. Like imagine if you get asked to eat your least favorite food and you have to decline 7 times because I don’t stop. You wouldn’t like that but why am I telling this people who know this
Cause people have plan in their head, some whole essay or screenplay worth of TV show on what to say. If you shut them in minute one, they stutter and get stuck like program. There is only continuing, without realizing they just dig deeper hole for themselves.
If you work with people or have social anxiety (or just simple person) you can learn to notice it.
When I was on tik tok this guys videos came up on my feed a lot before he had some “controversy” (I don’t remember what it was about) either way they are into cosplay and table top gaming and they make and paint a lot of their cosplay and miniatures etc… so I imagine he is doing a craft where the gloves are necessary
He's a teacher so he must be doing some hobby. His reactions always seem very genuine (if not occasionally pretentious) because I think he sees a video while scrolling and just drops when he's doing to reply. It's not scripted or content he plans to make.
One of the biggest reasons I avoid dating anymore is because of all the dudes who thought my clear statement of my boundaries was something to overcome. I'm an adult. I know what I want. I don't need to be convinced, especially in regard to my romantic desires.
I largely blame romantic movies where the guy gets the girl because he will not stop bothering her and wears her down. It's wish fulfillment for men who pine after women who don't want to be with them. It's detrimental to relationships to normalize.
I largely blame romantic movies where the guy gets the girl because he will not stop bothering her and wears her down. It's wish fulfillment for men who pine after women who don't want to be with them. It's detrimental to relationships to normalize.
I DETEST this trope from rom-coms.
So-called "persistence" is creepy and disrespectful AF.
What's even more creepy is it's not uncommon to hear that "how we met" story from elderly couples. "He just kept coming around until I gave in" or "I kept asking her out until she finally said yes."
The Onion had a headline a long time ago along the lines of "Man gets arrested for romantic comedy behavior". I think you're spot on - a lot of creepy/wrong behavior has been normalized as "cute" or "persistent" by movies over the years.
We also can't pretend like there weren't/aren't women who wanted to engage in this game too. Twice now I've asked girls out, been rejected or "maybe'd", and then given them the platonic distance I thought they wanted only to get told by their friends years later that they actually would have given me a chance if I'd been persistent. I'm not that guy though, my mom raised me right, no means no and even if it doesn't mean no I shouldn't waste my time on girls like that.
It's good you did that imo, it's on them to be clear if they wanted to be pursued. Good potential partners are clear communicators so I don't think it's likely that you lost out.
Good point. I should've been more clear in that it's the film makers wish fulfillment and that goes on to be a horrific guide for men and boys like you said
Amen!! I was never able to put it in words as clearly as you but this is the precise problem. The dating world today does not see “boundaries” they see obstacles or hurdles to overcome. AND I have dated a wide age gap, like 25-45 {while being in my 30s}.
I was experienced and comfortable enough to say how I am and what I expect. If you agree then let’s proceed, if not then we can both move on to the next…but they would just decide my words were a challenge. Sometimes it would be obvious what they were thinking but not always and I would spend some fun times with them only for it to be revealed that they don’t respect me and are manipulating me to get what they want or turn me into something instead of appreciating that I am exactly what I said and my boundaries are concrete.
It doesn't help that apparently some women have also learned bad things from these movies and tropes and believe that's how to act as well.
Zero excuse for men not respecting "no", mind. Men deserve to be shut down, and women who do this also need to learn that it shuts men down so they stop.
And, because the "not all men" crowd will blather if I don't: Same is, of course, true in reverse. It's just EVERY SO SLIGHTLY more often than it's a man pushing a women, but yes, obviously, of course, a women trying to push past a man's consent is also wrong. Or whatever they identify as. People should not try to overcome consent.
i think in a lot of cases for both sexs since the audience is mostly women, but yeah. i think stories can be told however folks want, but also people need to have media literacy to understand you don't want to do a lot of the stuff people find desirable in a fantasy or story or whatever.
i only dated a little bit in the last many years, before i got disabled, and yeah dating now has become even more fraught than it was before. i was in a ltr for like 10 years with two different partners, after when i entered into corpo dating world via tinder etc, it's gotten far worse imo. i just can't even deal with it anymore.
I'll never forget the initial response to "You" and how so many women swooned at "Joe" that Penn Badgley felt revulsion. Same with 50 Shades of Grey. Women actually in those stalking/abduction scenarios would not feel like they are as romantic as they are imagining.
I had to block him on instagram because I got tired of his shit. He has some really good takes sometimes but so many of his videos are just shitting on white people. And when people try to challenge him in the comments, even when they’re very respectful, he just says “shut up cracker.” It’s very childish and divisive behavior
Dude why did I get this vibe when he pinned this on white men when I’ve had problems with multiple different men doing this/seeing it that weren’t just white. The fact he can’t even take accountability for his own is pretty crazy and telling what he thinks of white people as whole.
It's insane to me how someone can be so close to getting it right, only to trip at the finish line. Like he couldn't keep the bigotry in any longer and he just had to make it a racist rant.
He's not helping women at all by twisting these things into his own issues either. Half these comments are about race instead of the harassment
Yep, I always, always try to stress to people, especially people who I agree with, that you really, really need to stick to good, factual arguments because as soon as you start adding in bad arguments or anything that's less than 100% truthful you turn people away and give ammo for people to use against you.
I feel the same way. Every time he shows up on my feed I typically start by agreeing with his takes then he just goes off about how bad white people are.
Yep, I think he just looks for any reason to hate white people. I can't imagine he thinks his race (and all other races, in fact) doesn't engage in aggressive boundary pushing.
There is a very racist subculture within the black community, and it gets very toxic. When I first started dating my now wife, I did some research on interracial couples, common pitfalls, how to handle racism, etc. - I found a lot of videos from black people that were pretty militant in their stance against interracial dating. They weren't buried like the racist content from white folks preaching against it, and they didn't receive the same pushback or scrutiny. It was really uncomfortable.
The only time anyone ever said something to us in public was a black man telling her to ditch me to be with a brother. She didn't hear it, thankfully, and I ignored it, but still.
We need open dialogue and the ability to address cultural issues without jumping to broad generalizations. I didn't walk away from that interaction or those videos thinking that was every black person's opinion on interracial dating/marriage, but it did make me aware that those beliefs were out there.
That was literally the reason I got permanently banned from the interestingasfuck subreddit. When asked, why I had been banned, the mod told me verbatim: "Racism against white people doesn't exist."
I think you severely misunderstood the point of this conversation if you thought this was the time to start naming which races you think do it the worst
I think the issue here is that this isn't just a white man problem, and its not even just a man problem. Ever seen a woman get rejected by a man like this? It can get pretty volatile. I think hes right though, and society has an issue with boundaries. People feel so entitled to other people's time and thoughts and its just ridiculous. I think we can all agree that in the original video, this lady was very clear about her interests and the dude was being pushy. It's not how I would act, and its not how I'll teach my son to act, but there are real people in the world that will act this way, and we need to push those people to do better.
i can't tell you how many women i've rejected and who've subsequently threw tantrums or accused me of being gay. because that's the only reason they could possibly get rejected, right? how could any straight man ever say no to them??
I mean, I later came out as gay, but that's besides the point.
If he was making a genuine effort to teach men why this behaviour is wrong, he failed by singling out a specific group, that will only seve to push them away
Well, tbf, the original video he is commentating on is a fake rage bait interaction to promote this woman's OnlyFans account, so it's just nonsense all the way down.
Yeah I was on board and nodding along until he got to that part. I immediately decided this dude is an idiot and a moron after that. One of the biggest problems amongst my black male friends is that they have horrible boundary issues. When we go out to the club they don’t take no. They do the same thing this white dude did in the video and even more. Multiple times I’ve seen black men get physical with a black woman after being rejected. Trying to grab her hips to pull her in after she clearly rejected him. It’s not a white man problem or a black man problem. It’s a man problem and this dude dividing it among racial lines is just ignorant as fuck.
The problem is how he's getting virtually no push back for being openly racist. It's pretty fucked up when you think about it..
White man says this about black people and he might lose his entire livelihood. If a white person is the target you get fucking awards on social media apparently
Is the racism necessary? The guy is an absolute creep who deserves to be made fun of, but you're high off your gourd if you think only white guys do this.
This is why I stopped watching their content when I was a TT user. They always make it a race issue, and to be fair sometimes it definitely is but then you get vids like this.
Dude the reactions I'm seeing to the trial have me fucking depressed. Even on some subreddits, the takes can really only be justified if you are just a giant racist moron.
Hilarious username. 😂 but yeah i feel bad for giving this video my clicks. It might as well be dead internet theory happening right in front of us cause its fake.
Dude im black and know for sure this is a not a white guy problem. Pushy guys like this exist everywhere. The guy in this video probably gets a lot of "feminist" likes white knighting like this but its honestly dog shit.
Also why the fuck is she recording her own face while conveniently leaving her massive cannons in frame? We've been had by the evil forces of the goonerverse.
Yeah accussing white men as if people in general from other etnicities didn't do the same makes his entire response feel dishonest and just an excuse to be racist protected by the excuse of being a feminist
Completely agree with the sentiment, but why make it a racial thing?
We don't know if the guy in the original video was white, black, Hispanic, asian, Indian... We don't know, yet that guy just casually spews racism as gospel.
The subtext here clearly being "Not all men"... Dude, you're part of the issue.
If he were the one being rejected would he have said "I know no means no but I'm black so I get a pass"?
Yeah so I live in Southern Ontario which is one of the most racially diverse places in the world. Is so very clearly an issue that transcends race as evident by the harrassment here. There are very well documented cases of women being harrased and sexually assaulted by white men born in Canada just as there are for non white Canadians and immigrants. It's not a race issue it's a gender issue.
As a man, I've gotta admit, I don't have this in me. This was incredibly uncomfortable to watch. He humiliated himself, but more importantly exposed himself as someone who doesn't take "no" for an answer.
I guarantee the way he talks about this encounter paints him as a victim of "feminist bullshit" or something. "All I did was ask for her number!"
I just don't understand how people can persist without enthusiastic consent. What is the fun in grinding someone down until they go out with you? There's billions of women on this planet, at least one of them will be receptive to your approach. And every second you spend trying to convince this woman is a second you arent spending looking for that woman. The movies and shows we watched as kids were wrong. Persistence is not cute. Just let it fucking go.
I find it mad. Like he asked and she said no and then tried a second time she said no again. The third time was insane to me but then the fourth and fifth was mental
I have to say, white men have this problem for sure. But I can't say any group of men even faired better in my experience, just that white men often had additional power to throw around
Oh fuck off with this just being a "white man" problem. I've seen plenty of men of all colours completely incapable of taking no for an answer.
Don't turn a subject of misogyny, sexism, and entitlement into a subject of race.
Pushing a girl that isn't into you to be into you isn't a good thing or a normal thing.
But blaming all white people and pretending like you're not a racist but a caring individual is ALSO not a good or normal thing either.
Both of these things can be true. I am sick of anti-white racism and most people still play dumb and accept it as normal. It's not and eventually it will get people hurt. It's unacceptable.
So dumb and racist to blame this on white people. Like no men from minorities are pushy and aggressive towards women?
It’s insane that to make racism against white people acceptable they had to justify that there’s a difference between racism and prejudice and that you can’t actually be racist by the new definition unless you have institutional support.
My lived experience has men of every ethnicity acting creepy towards women. My best friend was assaulted at work by a black dude and two girls I know are terrified of Mexican dudes aggressively cat calling and following them.
I listened to KRS and Immortal Technique. I see that white culture has been pretty bad but I think it’s way more about predatory capitalism. I don’t accept that it’s cool to act racist AT ALL and shit like this makes me realize I have no real place politically.
When white kids rebel from the Christian, Mormon or Catholic mainstream in America they get smashed right back down by society. When they embrace other cultures, people demand that they pay up for the right to explore anything other than the deep rooted racism of their culture.
Brother Ali had a poignant line about the white man losing his soul trying to own another’s, but no-one thinks about what that means. If white people lost their souls being shitty, maybe don’t crush the ones out there soul searching.
Some men really think that all women can be cracked by a certain code of words if they can just find it, huh? These idiots are basically saying men deserve the right to stress test women’s consent.
So he knows what "no" means, but he knows that most women will eventually stop verbalising what the want and fall under the pressure, he actually have that knowledge, and he knows that a feminist resistance will not fall down. What an actual piece of shit.
As a 40 yo white man who have made a long way of deconstruction, in my experience (and I see this in my undeconstructed fellas) is that we believe we deserve an explanation, but also an explanation means that I need to understand it. And if it doesn't match my previous beliefs then I will discuss it, because rationally one of us is right and the other one wrong.
This guy was 100% sure that he was the best thing that had happen to the person in the video in all day, had they were making a mistake because they didn't understand how awesome he is, but the problem is not that they didn't left long, the problem is that he would never agree with their reasons, so the explanation wouldn't be finished until they agree with him.
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u/qualityvote2 4d ago edited 4d ago
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